Chapter 175 Volume 5, Chapter 20, Talks and Meetings

Talk to Stalin about Germany Poland and its borders Roosevelt's plan for the four policemen I give Leningrad the sword of honor by order of the king Second plenary meeting Stalin asks who will command the Overlord I explain the British opinion on the Overlord and Italian campaigns Thirty enemy divisions pinned down in the Balkans How to persuade Turkey to enter the war Bulgaria's status Dispute over the date of the English Channel crossing does not undermine the importance of the Italian campaign people. Interspersed between the formal meetings were conversations that Roosevelt, Stalin, and I had at lunches and dinners that were arguably even more important.On such occasions, everyone is in high spirits, talks about everything, and listens to everything.On the evening of the 28th, Sunday, President Roosevelt hosted a banquet for ten or eleven of us, including the interpreter.The conversation soon became full and serious.

After dinner on the first night, as we wandered indoors, I invited Stalin to a sofa and suggested that we talk about what would happen after the war was won.He agreed and we sat down.Aiden also came to participate.Marshal Stalin said: Let us first consider the worst possible future.He believed that Germany was likely to recover from this war and launch a new war in a relatively short period of time.He worries about a resurgence of German nationalism.After Versailles, peace seemed assured, but Germany soon made a comeback.Therefore, we must create a strong institution to prevent Germany from starting a new war.He was convinced that Germany would make a comeback.I asked him: How long will it take?He replied: Within fifteen to twenty years.I say make sure the world is safe for at least fifty years.If this kind of security can only be maintained for fifteen to twenty years, then we will be doing our soldiers a disservice.

Stalin thought we should consider limiting Germany's manufacturing capabilities.The Germans are an able people, very industrious and resourceful, and they recover quickly.I replied that we must have certain controls in place.I want to ban all their civil and military aviation undertakings, and they are not allowed to set up a general staff system.Stalin asked: Do you also want to ban watch factories and furniture factories so that they don't make parts for shells?The Germans once made toy rifles and taught hundreds of thousands of people how to shoot. I said: everything will not be done once and for all.The world is constantly moving forward.We have gained some experience.Our task is to make the world safe for at least fifty years by disarming Germany, banning rearmament, supervising German factories, banning all aviation, and making far-reaching territorial changes.All this brings us back to the question whether Great Britain, the United States and the Soviet Union were able to maintain a close friendship for their mutual benefit and keep Germany under surveillance.Don't be afraid to issue orders whenever we see danger.

There was control after the last war, Stalin said: but it failed in the end. We were inexperienced at the time, I replied.The last war was not a national war on the scale of today, and Russia did not participate in the peace conference.This time the situation is different.I've always felt that Prussia should be isolated and weakened; Bavaria, Austria, and Hungary formed into a broad, peaceful, non-aggressive federation. I think that Prussia should be treated more severely than the rest of Germany, so that the latter will not dare to put all their eggs in one basket with the former.But don't forget, it's all wartime mood.

What you said is good, but not enough.Stalin made this comment. I went on to say that Russia should have its army, and Britain and the United States should have their navies and air forces.In addition, the three countries also have other means.All three countries must have strong armed forces and will never undertake any obligation to reduce their armaments. We are defenders of world peace.If we fail, it may cause a hundred years of chaos.If we are strong, we can fulfill the defender's mission. Of course, it is not limited to peacekeeping. I went on to say: the three countries also guide the future of the world.I will never force any system to be accepted by other countries.I ask for liberty and the right of nations to develop as they wish.Our three countries must always maintain friendly relations, so as to ensure that the people of all countries can live and work in peace.

Stalin asked again how to deal with Germany. I replied that I was not against the working people of Germany, but only against its leaders and their dangerous alliance.He said that there were also many laborers who were ordered to fight in the German divisions.He asked German prisoners of war from the working class (so the record says, but he probably meant the Communist Party) why they fought for Hitler.They replied that they were following orders.He shot them all. I propose that we should discuss Poland.He agreed and asked me to comment first.I said that we had declared war for Poland, so Poland is important to us.The security of Russia's western frontier is the most important issue.But I made no promises about the borders.I want to have an open and frank discussion with the Russians on this issue.If Marshal Stalin would give us his opinion on this question, we could discuss it and come to some kind of agreement.And Marshal Stalin should tell us what is most necessary to defend Russia's western frontier.The European war would probably end in 1944, the Soviet Union would be immensely stronger after the war, and Russia would bear a great deal of responsibility in any decisions concerning Poland.I personally think that Poland can go west, like a soldier two steps closer to the left.If Poland stepped on Germany's toes, that would be helpless, but there must be a strong Poland.Poland is an indispensable instrument in the orchestra of Europe.

Stalin said that the Polish people have their culture and language, which must be preserved and not destroyed. Shall we try to draw a boundary line?I asked. Yes. Congress did not authorize me to draw the boundary line, and I believe the same was the case with President Roosevelt.But we are now in Teheran, and we may ascertain whether, with the concerted efforts of the three heads of government, it is possible to determine a policy which can be proposed to the Poles and persuaded to accept it. We agree to study this issue.Stalin asked if it was not necessary to invite the Poles.I said yes, and contact the Poles after we have reached an informal agreement on the matter.Mr. Eden broke in at this point to say that Stalin had surprised him by saying that afternoon that the Poles could go west as far as the Oder.He was encouraged by this insight that the future looked promising.Stalin asked us if we thought he would swallow Poland.Eden said he didn't know how much the Russians were going to eat, how much they couldn't digest.The Russians, Stalin said, demanded nothing that belonged to others, though they might bite off a piece of Germany.Eden said that Poland could get compensation from the West for the territory it lost in the East.Stalin said it might be possible for Poland to get compensation from the West, but he did not know how that would turn out.Later, I used three matches to illustrate my proposition for Poland's westward development.Stalin was delighted with this.Our group said goodbye temporarily in this atmosphere.

On the morning of the twenty-ninth, the military heads of Britain, the Soviet Union and the United States held a meeting.Knowing that Stalin had had a private conversation with Roosevelt and was of course now in the same embassy, ​​I suggested that the President and I have lunch before the second plenary meeting that afternoon.But Roosevelt declined, and sent Harriman to me to explain that he did not want Stalin to know that he was having private meetings with me. I find this odd because I think the three of us should trust each other equally.After lunch, President Roosevelt met with Stalin and Molotov and discussed many important issues, including in particular Mr. Roosevelt's plan for a postwar world government.Such a plan should be carried out by the four policemen of the Soviet Union, the United States, the United Kingdom and China.Stalin did not quite agree with this opinion.He said the four policemen would not be welcomed by small European countries.He does not believe that China will be strong at the end of the war, and even if it is strong, European countries will be disgusted by China's power to dictate to them.On this point, the Soviet leader did show more foresight and practical judgment than President Roosevelt.

At that time, Stalin made another proposal: the creation of a Council of Europe and a Council of the Far East, with the Council of Europe consisting of Great Britain, Russia, the United States, and possibly another European country.President Roosevelt replied that it would be similar to the regional committees I proposed, with separate regional committees for Europe, the Far East, and the Americas.He didn't seem to explain clearly that I was also planning to create a joint national supreme council consisting of these three regional councils.Since I did not learn about the talks much later, I cannot correct this false statement.

Before we begin our second plenary meeting at four o'clock, I, by order of the King, present His Majesty with a sword specially designed and cast in commemoration of the glorious Battle of Stalingrad.The hall outside was crowded with Russian officers and soldiers.After explaining the reason in a few words, I handed this glorious weapon to Marshal Stalin, who raised the sword to his lips in a very moving gesture and kissed the scabbard lightly.Then he handed the sword to Voroshilov, who put it down again.Escorted by the Russian guard of honor, the sword was lifted out of the room with great solemnity.As the procession went out, I saw President Roosevelt sitting on one side of the room, obviously moved by the ceremony.Then, we walked into the meeting room and sat around the round table again.This time, all the Chiefs of Staff were present, and they were now present to report the results of the morning's hard discussions.

The chief of the Reich General Staff said they had studied the various operational plans and realized that, between now and the launch of the Overlord campaign, if some action was not taken in the Mediterranean, the Germans might move troops from Italy to Russia or northern France.They considered pushing outposts up the center of the Italian peninsula, strengthening the Yugoslav partisans so they could hold back German divisions in the Balkans and bring Turkey into the war.They also discussed landing in the south of France to tie in with the Overlord plan.Porter had re-examined our bombing offensive and Marshall had examined the state of American strength in Britain. General Marshall said that the problem facing the Western Allies in Europe was not a question of troops or supplies, but a question of ships and landing craft and airfields for acquiring fighter jets close to the battlefield.There was a particular shortage of landing craft, and what was most needed were landing craft capable of carrying forty tanks each.As far as the Overlord battle plan is concerned, the delivery of troops and supplies is carried out according to the plan.In every problem faced by the Allies, the variable and problematic factor was almost always in the area of ​​landing craft.Shipbuilding programs in both the United Kingdom and the United States are being accelerated for two purposes: first, to increase the size of the initial attack of Operation Overlord; Then, Stalin asked the crucial question, who commanded the Overlord operation plan?President Roosevelt replied that no decision had been made.Stalin said bluntly that if no one is appointed to be in charge of all relevant preparations, this battle plan will definitely have no results.Roosevelt said steps had been taken on this point.General Morgan, a British officer who had headed a joint Anglo-American staff, had been planning for a considerable period of time for this campaign.In fact, everything has been decided, only the Supreme Commander has not yet been decided.Stalin felt the need to immediately appoint someone not only to plan but also to execute.Otherwise, even if General Morgan claims that everything is ready, once the Supreme Commander is appointed, the Supreme Commander may have a completely different opinion and intend to rebuild the stove. I said that General Morgan was the Chief of the General Staff appointed by the Committee of the Joint Chiefs of Staff some months before as the Supreme Commander in Chief (to be appointed), with the consent of President Roosevelt and myself.His Majesty's Government expressed its willingness to accept the command of an American commander-in-chief, because the United States was responsible for organizing the attacking force and had an advantage in numbers. But on the other hand, in the Mediterranean, almost all the navy is British, and we also have a considerable advantage in the army.Therefore, we feel that the commander-in-chief of this battlefield should reasonably and reasonably be held by the British.I suggest that the appointment of the Supreme Commander should be discussed by the three heads of government rather than in a larger conference.Stalin said that the Soviet government did not claim a say in appointments.They just want to know who is being appointed.The most important thing is to determine the candidates as early as possible, and the general who is selected is not only responsible for planning the battle plan, but also implementing it.I also think that deciding who will lead the Overlord campaign is one of the most important issues to deal with, and say that will be decided within the last two weeks at the latest. I then stated the UK's position.I said that I was a little disturbed by the number and complexity of the problems we faced.This meeting represents approximately 1.2 to 1.4 billion people in the entire human race, and their fate depends on us reaching the correct conclusion.It is therefore very important that we do not conclude the meeting until the major military, political and moral issues before us have been thoroughly resolved; but I intend to confine myself to a few specific issues for the Military Subcommittee to examine. First, what kind of assistance can the large number of troops gathered in the Mediterranean Sea provide to Overlord's battle plan?What will be the scale of the attack on the south of France, especially by the troops stationed in Italy?Both President Roosevelt and Stalin mentioned this plan, but we have not yet conducted a detailed study, so neither can express a final opinion.Stalin was quite right in emphasizing the importance of the pincer offensive, but attacking with a small number of troops is clearly ineffective because it is wiped out by the enemy before the main force arrives.I express my opinion entirely on my own behalf that at least enough landing craft to transport two divisions should be kept in the Mediterranean.Having acquired landing craft of this transport power, we shall be able to assist outposts to advance up the center of Italy by means of sea encirclement, thereby avoiding the slow and difficult tactics of a frontal attack.Second, these landing craft will enable us to capture Rhodes and open the Aegean Sea while Turkey enters the war. This batch of landing craft will also enable us to attack southern France from the sea in conjunction with the Battle of Overlord in five or six months. These plans of operations obviously require the utmost care and timing, but if the points I have mentioned above can be achieved, it seems that there is a good chance of success.On the other hand, if landing craft sufficient to carry two divisions were to be left in the Mediterranean, it would be obvious that the execution of the Overlord plan would have to be postponed by six to eight weeks, or, alternatively, it would have been necessary to send troops to the East, The ships that had served as raids in the war against Japan were brought back, so we were caught in a dilemma.This requires weighing the priorities of the various issues.I said that I would listen with gratitude to Marshals Stalin and Voroshilov on these matters, since their British allies were inspired by their victories and commanded their great admiration and respect. The second important issue is that of Yugoslavia and the Dalmatian coast. The guerrillas contained at least twenty-one German divisions in the Balkans.In addition, nine Bulgarian divisions were stationed in Greece and Yugoslavia.Calculated in this way, these heroic guerrillas contained thirty divisions of the enemy army.Thus, the Balkan battlefield really became a place where we can spread the enemy's forces as much as possible, and can relieve the pressure for our future hard battles.We have no ambitions for the Balkans per se. Our general goal is to tightly trap these thirty enemy divisions.Representatives of Mr. Molotov, Mr. Eden and President Roosevelt should hold talks and report to the meeting on unresolved political issues.Do our Soviet friends and our allies, for example, have any political difficulties with the above proposition?If so, what are these difficulties?We are determined to work with them in solidarity.From a military point of view, there is no need to use a large number of troops in this area. At best, it is necessary to help the guerrillas with material equipment and surprise fighting. The third and last question is that of Turkey.Britain, an ally of Turkey, had accepted the task of persuading or inducing Turkey to join the war before Christmas.If President Roosevelt, under the present circumstances, is willing to intervene and lead the way, the British Government is more than willing to allow him to do so.I said that I was prepared to pledge, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, that Great Britain would do everything in its power to bring Turkey into the war.From a military point of view, Turkey's participation in the war would take up no more than two or three divisions of the Allies. Then I asked what the Soviet government thought of Bulgaria.Were they prepared to inform Bulgaria that if Turkey declared war on Germany and Bulgaria were to enter Turkey, the USSR immediately considered Bulgaria an enemy?I suggested that representatives of Molotov, Eden, and President Roosevelt confer and then advise the conference on the best way to get Turkey into the war.As long as we can achieve this, we will deal a heavy blow to Germany.Bulgaria will be weakened, Romania is already doing everything possible to want unconditional surrender, and it will also have a great impact on Hungary.All the campaigns in the Mediterranean which I have considered have been designed to relieve the pressure on Russia and to give the Overlord the best chance of success. I talked for about ten minutes.No one spoke at the meeting.Then Stalin said: If Bulgaria threatened Turkey because of Turkey's entry into the war, the Soviet government would consider it to be in a state of war with Bulgaria.I thanked him for this assurance and asked if I could inform the Turks in this way.Stalin said he fully agreed.He then explained his views on the countries of the Balkans.He sees no difference of opinion among us and is fully in favor of aid to the partisans.But he added bluntly that Turkey's entry into the war, aid to Yugoslavia, and the capture of Rome were relatively secondary issues in the Russian way of thinking.If this meeting is held to discuss military issues, the Overlord Operation Plan must first be considered. If a military committee is to be organized according to the proposal, it is obvious that clear instructions should be given as to the tasks to be performed by the committee.The Russians need aid, and urgent aid, in their great struggle against the Germans.The best way to help is to implement the Overlord's battle plan vigorously as soon as possible.There are three main issues to decide: The first is the date.The time should be set in May, no later.Second, landings in southern France were required to support the campaign.It is of course best if the landing can be achieved two or three months before the Battle of Overlord; otherwise, it will be carried out at the same time; if it cannot be carried out at the same time, it is also beneficial to land at a later time.Raiding southern France as a support campaign certainly helped the Overlord campaign. The capture of Rome and other campaigns in the Mediterranean could only be diversionary actions. The third issue to be decided was the appointment of the commander in chief of Operation Overlord.Stalin said he hoped that this decision would be taken before the end of the meeting, and at the latest within a week of the meeting.Without the Supreme Commander, the preparations for the Overlord's battle plan cannot be carried out smoothly.It was of course a matter for the British and American governments to decide who would be chosen, but the Soviet government wanted to know who it was. President Roosevelt said that we have agreed on the importance of the Overlord plan, but disagree on the date.If the Battle of Overlord were to be fought in May, at least one Mediterranean campaign would have to be abandoned.Had the landing craft and other equipment been left in the Mediterranean, the Overlord campaign would have been delayed until June or July.Overlord's delay clearly raises dangers.If we carry out an expedition in the eastern Mediterranean with even two or three divisions, it is very likely that this expedition will develop into a large campaign, which will make us want to stop, and will require sending more troops.If this happens, even starting the Overlord operation plan in July will be affected. Mr. Roosevelt went on to refer to what I have said concerning the containment of thirty German and Bulgarian divisions in the Balkans.He suggested that we should reinforce the siege of them with shock troops.The important issue is to contain them within this area and prevent them from endangering other battlefields.There was evident agreement that Tito should be supported, but that such support should be provided without detracting from the Overlord plan. Stalin said that according to the information he had received, the Germans had eight divisions in Yugoslavia, five in Greece, three in Bulgaria, and twenty-five in France.He wasn't prepared to agree to postpone Operation Overlord beyond May. I said I could not agree to make such a guarantee.But I don't think there's any fundamental disagreement in terms of what you've expressed.I am willing to use all the strength of His Majesty's government to start the Overlord Campaign as soon as possible, but I don't think we can sacrifice and give up our great future in the Mediterranean just because we want to start the Overlord Campaign a month or two earlier, as if this The future seems worthless.Britain has a strong army in the Mediterranean and I don't agree with letting them stop fighting for almost six months.This army should fight the enemy side by side with America's allies with maximum combat effectiveness.I very much hope that the combined forces of the Anglo-American forces will crush the large numbers of German troops stationed in Italy, and, after advancing north of Rome, hold large numbers of German troops on the Italian front.To stand still and do nothing in Italy for nearly six months would have amounted to a misuse of our troops, and would have exposed us to the reproach that the Russians had borne almost all the burden of the war on land. Stalin said he had no intention at all of calling for a cessation of all campaigns in Italy during the winter. I explained that if the landing craft were removed from the Mediterranean, it would mean definitely reducing our campaign there.I reminded Stalin of the three conditions for the success of the Overlord campaign.First, the German fighter force in northwestern Europe must be sufficiently weakened between now and the time of the offensive.Secondly, the German reserves in France and the Low Countries must not exceed a dozen of the best mobile divisions in full force when we attack.Third, to prevent the Germans from bringing back more than fifteen of their best divisions from other theaters during the first sixty days of the war.In order to obtain these conditions we should try to contain the Germans in Italy and Yugoslavia.If Turkey enters the war, it will increase our strength, but it is not necessary.Most of the German troops currently stationed in Italy are transferred from France.If we relax the pressure on Germany in Italy, they will be sent back to France.We must continue to engage the enemy on the only battlefield on which we can currently fight him.If we fought it as hard as possible in the Mediterranean during the winter, it would be most ideal for creating the conditions needed for a successful Overlord campaign. What would happen, Stalin asked, if Germany had thirteen or fourteen mobile divisions in France, and more than fifteen divisions could be drawn from other theaters?Does this stop the Overlord War? I said: No, absolutely not. I then turn the discussion back to Turkey.We have agreed to urge it to go to war by the end of the year.If it goes to war, the only military action we need to take is to station our aircraft at Anatolian airfields in Turkey and capture Rhodes.Using an assault division, plus some garrison troops is enough to deal with the situation.Once we have the air bases in Rhodes and Turkey, we can deplete the rest of the Aegean islands at any time.These military operations do not impose an endless burden on us, but can be considered a very limited obligation.If we try unsuccessfully to get Turkey into the war, that's the end of the matter.But it would be a relief to the Germans if we couldn't get Turkey into the war.Regarding Turkey, there is a deeper intention. If it enters the war, and we take Rhodes, and later drive the Germans from the other islands of the Aegean, all our troops and air forces stationed in Egypt can move north to join the battle, instead of taking the defensive. The Turkish issue should not be taken lightly.As President Roosevelt and General Marshall said, the size, nature, and timing of our campaigns depend upon our ability to acquire landing craft and move troops across the sea.I said that I was ready to study this question tirelessly and in great detail at any time, but if the few landing craft required could not be left in the Mediterranean or brought in from other theaters, military operations of any size would be impossible in the Mediterranean area, which would also include Including the impossibility of attacking the South of France.We must consider these reasons with the utmost care before making a decision.I told Stalin that I agreed with him to give the Military Technical Committee a clear mandate.I suggest that the various contents of the mission should be drawn up by the heads of governments of the three countries respectively. Stalin said that after reconsidering this issue, he felt that there was no need to establish a military committee.In order to make a decision, it is not necessary to have all the side issues clear.A few key issues were the date of the Overlord campaign, the appointment of a commander-in-chief, and the possibility of a complementary campaign in southern France.All these issues are for the plenary to decide.At the same time, he also believes that there is no need to set up a foreign ministers committee at all.Appointing these committees would only delay the deadline for concluding the General Assembly.As far as he is concerned, he cannot postpone his visit in Tehran beyond December 1st, and no later than December 2nd. President Roosevelt said that if he decides to set up a military committee to carry out the work, he has tried to draw up the task content for this organization in a simple way. The main battle in 2044.Second Paragraph: The Committee will make a recommendation to allow an auxiliary campaign to be tried, provided that the utmost care must be taken beforehand as to whether such campaign would delay the Overlord's operational plan.Everyone agrees on that. Stalin said that the Soviet government was very concerned about the date of the Battle of Overlord, especially because of the need to echo the battle on the Russian battlefield.President Roosevelt stated that the date for the Battle of Overlord had been fixed at the Quebec Conference, and that only because of the significant changes that had occurred since that time led us to consider certain changes. Before we adjourned, Stalin looked at me from across the table and said: I would like to ask the Prime Minister a direct question about the Overlord campaign.Do the Prime Minister and British officials really have faith in the Overlord campaign?I replied that, provided that the above-mentioned conditions for the Overlord campaign are met when the time is right, it is our bounden duty to make every effort to cross the Channel and storm the Germans.At this point, we will adjourn the meeting. Stalin hosted a dinner for us.Attendance was strictly limited Stalin and Molotov, President Roosevelt, Hopkins, Harriman, Clark Kerr, myself and Eden and our interpreter.After the hard work of the conference, everyone was elated and cheered again and again.Shortly thereafter, Elliott Roosevelt, who had flown here to join his father, appeared at the door.He was beckoned to come in.So he took a seat at the table.He was too talkative even during our conversation, and later exaggerated what he had heard, causing the most serious misunderstandings.According to Hopkins, Stalin played a lot of jokes with me, which I didn't mind a bit until Marshal Stalin spoke in a mild tone of voice about the serious, even dire issue of punishing the Germans.He said that the German General Staff must be destroyed.The entire strength of Hitler's mighty army rested on some 50,000 officers and technicians.If these people were all captured and shot at the end of the war, Germany's military power would be eradicated.When I heard this, I felt that the answer should be: the British Parliament and the public will never tolerate mass shootings.Even when they allowed it in the frenzy of wartime, when such atrocities first occurred, they vehemently opposed those responsible.The Soviets should not let their imaginations run wild on this issue. But Stalin, perhaps only in jest, continued to talk about it.He said: 50,000 people must be shot.I was very angry to hear that.I said: I would rather have me taken into a garden and shot here and now than have such a disgraceful act sully the honor of me and my country. At this point, President Roosevelt intervened.He proposed a mediation method, saying that not 50,000 people should be shot, but 49,000 people.No doubt he wanted to make the whole issue laughable.Aiden also made gestures and hints at me to convince me that it was all a joke.And yet Elliott Roosevelt rose from his seat across the table to speak at this time, saying how sincerely he agreed with Field Marshal Stalin and how sure he was that the American Army would support it. Disturbed in this way, I got up from the table, and went into the dimly lighted room next door.As soon as I got there, someone patted me on the shoulder from behind. It turned out to be Stalin, and Molotov was standing next to him. Both of them were smiling, and sincerely explained that they were just joking and didn't think of any serious problems at all. .Stalin's demeanor was charming, if he wanted to; but I have never seen him in such an attractive manner as he was then.Although then and now, I'm not entirely convinced that this was a joke and that there were no serious intentions behind it.I agree to go back to the original room.We had a great time the rest of the night.